Rose McCoy found success and joy by getting out of her comfort zone and playing to her strengths, much like my good friend, Dusti, has done.

As promised, here’s our conversation.

Traci: Dusti Ondryas is a Brand Marketing Manager at Thumbtack, Founder of the Midlife Lesbian Community, mom of two, and a talented baker and cake creator who previously ran a successful home baking business before she was refined by divorce in 2018.

After many years of denial, she finally allowed herself to explore sexuality and discovered she was attracted to women. After meeting Tiffany, her now-wife, everything clicked. She instantly knew she was a lesbian. Dusti and I have known each other since childhood, and she’s one of my best friends. Dusti, welcome to the show.

Dusti: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here.

Traci: I’m thrilled you’re here. I’m so excited. If you could give us a quick rundown of your life up until you’re divorce so that they can get to know you. They’re not going to be able to know you as I do, but I’m glad you’re here and I am excited to get rolling.

Dusti: My life, in a nutshell, I was born and raised in Salt Lake City. I have divorced parents and one older brother. I went to college at the University of Utah and studied French. I wanted to be a French teacher. I served a mission for my church in the Czech Republic, and then I spent some time living in Europe as well, studying French. I then ended up getting married, having babies, and doing that whole thing. I became a stay-at-home mom for several years. When my kids were little, their dad had a brain tumor and it was a big wake-up call for me that I needed to be able to have a career to support my kids if something happened and he could no longer support us or was no longer with us.

That’s when I started my baking business. That ended up picking up. I got extremely busy and I was able to support my family with that business for several years when he was sick or when he was in and out of jobs, which happened a lot over the years. That business was going well, but I didn’t have insurance. I didn’t have paid time off and all of that stuff.

I was thinking about leaving my husband and I realized I needed to have a more stable job. That’s when I ended up getting a job at Thumbtack. That’s a whole story in itself, but my career moved along there and that’s how I became a Brand Marketing Manager. During that time is also when I started to explore my sexuality and realized I was a lesbian and got married, and here we are.

Traci: Congratulations. You just got married in September 2022. We then celebrated after. You did a little bit of an elopement. I’m super happy for you.

Dusti: Thank you.

Traci: I know how your divorce went down and all the difficulties that you went through, but a lot of what we talk about on this show is becoming refined by divorce. The reason I chose that name is that I believe that going through very difficult and life-changing events like divorce, illness, or anything that’s a major life event can mold you into a better version of yourself, and it brings things into perspective and can help you shed what’s not working. It’s a process that happens over a lifetime. It’s not a destination.

When I say refined, I don’t mean that you’re done and baked. As we go through our life and especially during these times of transition, which it sounds like you’ve had many transitions, that refinement process can be especially powerful. I wanted to know if you felt the same, what your perspective is, how you’ve been refined by divorce, and/or anything else that you want to talk about transition-wise.

Dusti: I did get divorced in 2018, but it was several years’ process leading up to that. I wasn’t happy for a long time before that. One of the biggest things that I’ve learned over the years was, first of all, I tried everything I possibly could. We opened our marriage, dated other people, and went to counseling. We did all the things. I felt like I had to try everything, and that was an important lesson. I felt like I gave everything I could, and it wasn’t working.

Going through the actual divorce process, the biggest thing I learned was that it’s okay to not have it together. It’s okay to be sad. The only way through hard times is to go through them. You can’t go around them. You have to go through it. I remember several times during my divorce, my first months being single and living alone, I’m sitting in my stairwell crying and being like, “This is okay. I need to let the tears flow because that’s the only way I’m going to get through this.” Letting myself be okay with not being okay was one of the most important lessons I’ve learned because not only when you’re going through a divorce, but in general, life is stressful and parenting is stressful.

Another thing that helped me grow was realizing it’s okay to think about myself. Women often are made to feel like we’re supposed to think of everyone else. We’re supposed to be martyrs and sacrifice our own happiness for everyone else, but I started thinking about my own kids and what choices would I want them to make, and what example I want to set for them. It was okay to make difficult decisions that are going to hurt other people if it means that you can be happy. I would want my kids to make the same decisions if it’s going to mean that they’re going to be happy.

[bctt tweet=”Women are often made to feel like they are supposed to think of everyone else by acting as martyrs and sacrificing their own happiness.” via=”no”]

Those were the biggest lessons that I learned. It’s okay not to be okay and it’s okay to think about myself. Learning those things has helped me in my career as well. During my tenure at Thumbtack, I have moved quite far up in my career in a short period of time because I’ve realized it’s okay to be uncomfortable, and I’m going to learn and grow through that discomfort and become a better version of myself, a better marketer, better team member, and whatever it may be.

Traci: That was so succinct. Those lessons can change your life. They’re profound. You made some big changes after your divorce. I wanted to follow up with the uncomfortableness or that factor. As you say, “Life is not perfect,” we are not perfect. It’s never going to be perfect. That’s not the goal. The goal is to be better, do better, and be happier.

As women, we are taught from the very beginning that our comfort and pleasure come second. You and I know that’s not true because when you can’t take care of yourself, you can’t take care of anybody else. As you said, these lessons helped you in many areas of your life. Let’s talk about the transition you went through and then I want to know how it’s affected you as far as your happiness and what was life like before and then what it’s like now. We talked about it before, but how did that all come about?

Dusti: As I mentioned, during the last few years of our marriage, we opened our marriage and I was able to like explore my sexuality. I assume this is what you were referring to. During that time, I dated other men. We, as a couple, dated other couples. I then tried to date women, but all of the women I tried to date were couples and they were women who wanted to be with women to make their husbands happy, which happens a lot in the community.

After I went through my divorce, I didn’t date during that time. I didn’t try to find any new love interests. I took a moment to work on myself and get through my divorce and all my emotions, but not all of them because they still come up sometimes. When I feel I was ready to start dating, I got on dating apps and went on some dates with a few men, but I felt almost an indescribable craving to date women.

Traci: Had you ever felt like that before?

Dusti: I had felt interested even back when we were super religious and “happily married.” I had a friend when we lived in Oregon that I had met at church, a woman who I felt attracted to, but I never did anything and never acted on it, but the thoughts were there. I knew.

Traci: How about when we were young?

Dusti: When I was young, I thought I was a late bloomer. I didn’t have what I thought were crushes on girls, but I didn’t have crushes on boys either. Had I grown up at this time and had more examples of lesbian relationships and had known that was a possibility for myself, I probably would’ve thought about it. I do remember in high school and college thinking, “Am I gay? No. I can’t be gay.” The thoughts came in because I wasn’t interested in dating, generally.

I went on some dates with men and craved women, and then I finally got on a woman-only dating app and it scared the shit out of me. Women were so assertive and I couldn’t believe it. I was like, “I don’t know how to deal with this. This is too much.” I got off the app. I was on there for a few days. I didn’t go on any dates. I then joined a Facebook group where I had some mutual friends and it was a Sapphic group for women who love women.

Traci: Can you explain what Sapphic is?

Dusti: Sapphic is an ancient term for women who love women. I was part of this Facebook group, which I observed. I didn’t participate a ton. The friend that had invited me to the group invited me out to a group activity and that’s where I met Tiffany, my now-wife. I felt a spark when I met her, but then she was at the opposite corner of the table for me so we didn’t get to chat. She then friended me the next day on Facebook, and immediately I messaged her and I was like, “I’m so happy you friended me. It was so great to meet you. I would love to hang out again. We should go get coffee.”

Immediately, she’s like, “How’s Friday?” Within five minutes, we had a date and were not messing around. We went on our first date for coffee and I felt an immediate connection I haven’t ever felt with anyone. We’re talking and it was so easy. We were mid-conversation and she was like, “All I can think about is kissing you.” She just interrupted me.

We kissed and it was like nothing I had ever experienced because I had never been with a lesbian or a woman who was into women. I remember driving home from our first date and I kept smacking myself in the car like, “You need to get your shit together. You’re being crazy. Snap out of it,” because it was so unreal. We chatted constantly. We hung out pretty much every day from that point forward. A few years later, we got married and here we are.

Traci: When you said you were on the ride home and saying, “Get it together,” what did you mean by that? What were you feeling at that point?

Dusti: I was feeling like a complete and utter twitter patient like I’ve never felt before, to the level that I felt ridiculous. I felt like a cartoon with hearts coming out of her head with heart-shaped eyeballs. My heart’s pounding out of my chest. I was like, “You need to like be levelheaded,” because you make these plans when you get divorced. “I’m going to take things slow. I’m going to do X, Y, and Z,” and then you meet someone, and it goes out the window. I wanted to make sure we were still moving slowly. It was a lot of big emotions and big feelings.

Traci: They were your first feelings for someone that you were attracted to. That must have been overwhelming. I was curious because I wondered if, at that point, you were still trying to push off your sexuality and saying, “Get it together.”

Dusti:  I wasn’t trying to push it away. People should know this. I enjoyed sex always. It wasn’t like I didn’t enjoy sex until I had sex with her, but it was like all the lights were on. Only some of the lights were on before, but now the whole house is lit up. That was a moment where I was like, “I thought I was bisexual my whole life, but this feels different.” There were some moments of discomfort, confusion, and looking back and replaying my entire life to figure out how I had missed something huge.

Traci: Have you thought about where you would be right now had you stayed with your first husband and not made those changes?

Dusti: Yes. I think about that quite often. I mentioned this but I was married for 20 years, and for the last 10 of those years, I knew I didn’t want to be there, but we were like okay and fine. We didn’t have a tumultuous relationship. I was like, “It’s fine.” I often think about lost time, even those ten years, and then, on the other side, “What would my life be like if I hadn’t taken that step?” I can’t imagine it now because I’m so happy. I’m happier than I ever thought I could be. My life wouldn’t be bad but it wouldn’t be this life, which is the best life for me. I have a partner now who is a partner who understands and loves me perfectly. We do life together and I didn’t have that before.

Personal Strengths: Divorce gives you a chance to gain the best life for you and find a better partner who understands you and can love you perfectly.

Traci: As you were nearing the end of the marriage, you guys had opened it up and were exploring at that point, that’s when this transition took off. How does that play out? I’m curious.

Dusti: It’s interesting. This is probably TMI, but that’s okay. I’ve tried to fantasize about men over the last couple of years, but it didn’t do anything for me. It’s hard for me to even imagine going back.

Traci: You can appreciate maybe the attraction of someone still, but sexually, it’s not working.

Dusti: I can appreciate George Clooney’s a very attractive man in that new movie.

Traci:  How do you define the difference between selfishness and self-care? How do you walk that line? For a lot of women, as we said, we’re raised to care for others. My readers and I want to know how you walk that line of taking care of yourself without it becoming your happiness dissolved. Do you think it’s okay? I want to know what your thoughts are.

Dusti: It’s something I think about a lot and I don’t know if I have an answer for it other than I understand that it is a struggle that most of us feel. I do often remind myself that self-care and self-love are not selfish. Taking time for myself is extremely important. I am a better person, a better parent, and a better wife when I’m thinking about my own needs as well. It’s a balance. We need to think about people around us and it’s important not to base every decision on other people, though.

Traci: Talk about that.

Dusti: Choosing to get a divorce took me several years. There are several reasons, but the biggest one was that we had kids, and I felt like I was breaking up my family. I had a lot of history with this man and I felt like I was going to be hurting him and giving up all of the histories that we had. As I mentioned, it became important to me to be an example of someone who can choose themselves when I thought about my kids.

They were the biggest reason I stayed, and then they were the biggest reason that I left. The decision did feel a little bit selfish because it did hurt my kids and my ex-husband, but in the end, it was the right and best decision. I am happier and he is happier now. It was hard for my kids, but my daughter has told me how proud she is of me for making that decision and that she’s never seen me so happy. They can see it.

Even if it’s hard for them, they can understand throughout their life that it’s okay to make decisions that might be hard on people so they can be happy. On a daily, I struggle. I don’t know if I’m doing a good job and if I’m balancing it right. I try to think of everyone around me and how my decisions are affecting them, but we just do our best and that’s what’s important. I do think it’s important to talk through things. I talk about the decisions I’ve made with my kids a lot, “I didn’t do everything right,” and we have a lot of conversations about it.

[bctt tweet=”The best feeling to have after a divorce is seeing your children proud and happy about your decision, even if it’s hard for them.” via=”no”]

Traci:  We grew up in the same generation, but at least for me, you don’t question your parents. They didn’t claim to be perfect, but they also didn’t share their faults with us. That was how it was. I love that this next generation, they’re going to be able to say, “I made this mistake. I did that,” and it helps to heal that damage with your children because I’ve experienced it too. Choosing divorce has a lot of judgment, shame, and guilt, and what feels like a selfish choice is typically not. Usually, it’s based on something bigger than some of its parts.

The fact that you even question whether you’re selfish and think about self-care and self-love indicates that you’re not. I know you personally and you’re not a selfish person and you care about others. I’ve seen the growth over the years. You’ve grown leaps and bounds as far as taking care of yourself and choosing what’s right for you rather than what’s right for those around you. That’s a refinement. That is the goal. I no longer believe that this life’s a test or a trial and that we’re going to go somewhere, but I do think that over time becoming a better person is my goal. I’m assuming it’s the same for you. Do you feel that way, or how do you see it?

Dusti: I converted to a religion and was very religious when I was married. It was always this like, “Endure to the end, and you’ll be rewarded in the next life,” and now I think, “I only have this life. Why is it my goal is to just endure life? I want to enjoy life.”

The value switches. What used to be “endure to the end” is now “enjoy to the end.” That doesn’t mean you ignore everyone and do what you want. I wonder how you felt with your family and friends and how they saw your decision to leave your husband and all the way up to marrying Tiffany. How has it been for you?

I am very lucky on that front. A lot of people do not have the experience that I had. As far as getting a divorce, everyone in my life was extremely supportive because they knew how unhappy I was. You are one of those people. I had a ton of support. I didn’t feel any judgment from people as far as making that decision. I was lucky with that.

Traci:  I know you did feel that pressure. It wasn’t coming directly from your friends and family. Was it just all the thoughts?

Dusti: Society, as a whole, expects you to keep it together. You’re supposed to keep your family together. There was the inherent pressure of being a woman in society and not wanting to break up my family. As far as coming out and starting to date Tiffany, I didn’t ever even come out. I never had a conversation and said to my family, “I’m a lesbian.” I just said, “I’m bringing my new person to dinner.” It was my birthday dinner with my family and everyone was like, “What’s their name?” I was like, “Her name’s Tiffany.” That’s how they figured out I was dating a woman.

My family has been extremely supportive. I know they had some questions. My mom called me and she’s like, “You need to call your sister-in-law. She has questions.” I told everyone, “If you have questions, I’m an open book, so feel free to ask me,” but everyone was extremely supportive. I’m very lucky. When my wife came out, she did not have the same experience. When most people come out, they do not have that experience. In the times we live in and my family’s dynamic, everyone’s very open.

Traci: You were pretty open with them with everything, even during your marriage when it was the ending there. Did you learn anything through that process of polyamory leading up to where you’re now?

Dusti: When we opened our marriage, we haven’t used the word polyamory. I don’t know if you’ve used that in your other shows. If your readers don’t know what that is, it’s loving more than one person and it’s a lifestyle choice. I was open with my family when we opened up our marriage and we were dating other people. They tolerated it but didn’t get it.

I learned a lot. That was also a big part of my being able to leave my marriage because the experience of dating other people, loving other people, and being loved by other people opened me up to realize I was worth more than I thought I was worth. Again, it was okay to make decisions that made me happy. Although I don’t practice polyamory any longer, it was an important part of my journey. I wouldn’t have met Tiffany probably had I not gone along that path because it was like a friend that I had met in that community that ended up inviting me to that group and activity that introduced me to her. It was an important part.

Personal Strengths: The experience of dating and being loved by others outside of a challenged marriage will make you realize that you are worth more than you actually think.

Traci: What were you hoping to accomplish with opening the marriage? It’s hard to go back and think about what were you thinking at that time and we’re looking at it from the future, but were you hoping to save your marriage? It’s important to understand your evolution because it’s helpful for others.

Dusti: I don’t know if I want to say we were trying to save our marriage, although that is a reason why a lot of people open their marriages. We had both been unfaithful to each other. We had hurt each other a lot. We realized we weren’t happy with each other but didn’t want to be apart. We had spent so many years together.

People reading can probably relate to this. When you’ve been married to someone for so long, raised kids, and been through illnesses, moves, and changes together, it’s hard to think about not doing life with this person even when you’re not happy with them. It was a way for us to find happiness with other people while still keeping our marriage together. It didn’t save our marriage at all. It gave me the courage to walk away and realize we are not happy and we don’t need to stay together. We’re going to be okay if we separate and start new lives.

Traci: I love when you said it helped you realize your worth and value. It’s great that you have found that. What can you say on that that would be helpful to someone maybe who is stuck in a marriage and wants to leave, like where you were at? What advice would you give?

Dusti: You are worth it. It’s happy on the other side. It’s not going to be easy. Getting divorced, no matter how much you know you want it, how unhappy you are, or how badly you want to get divorced, is hard, but on the other side of that is happiness. You have to understand that you’re worth it and that the difficulty you’ll need to go through is worth it.

I can’t even describe how different life feels to me on the other side of divorce. It has domino-ed into every aspect of my life. I would never have taken the risks that I’ve taken in my career if I hadn’t taken that step to get divorced. That was probably the biggest and hardest thing I’ve ever done. After doing that, I was like, “I can do anything. Whatever it is, I can do it.”

Traci:  That’s the growth that can happen in these difficult challenges there. As you said, even if you want a divorce, it’s one of the hardest things you’ll go through. It changes your status in society with your family and friends. You lose a partner even if they’ve not been helpful, at least they’re still there to talk to. Being alone and on your own and having to take care of yourself is a big decision. Once you do make it through, you can make it through anything. There were days when I would lay in bed and not even get up because I couldn’t face life, but you do make it. I feel the same way. Once you make it past that hurdle, it opens up possibilities.

For you, we went way back when we were talking about whether can you imagine your life had you not made the choices that you did, it’s hard to know where I would be. I still question it. I’m sure you do like, “Was it the right decision?” You know it’s the right decision, but it’s not you change your life, and then everything’s perfect. I want to be clear about that. It’s not everything’s all rosy and it’s more like a joy. Do you feel that way? How would you explain it?

Dusti: I still have moments where I feel emotional about my first marriage because it was for many years, and I loved him no matter how hard it was. I still love him. He’s still a good friend. He’s my kid’s dad. I don’t even question it. It was the right decision for me, but I do look back and think about the way that I handled things that weren’t great and the way people were hurt along the way, but I have to keep reminding myself that was okay. We aren’t perfect. We’re human. The important part is that my life is happy now.

Traci: You’re on a different track. Knowing you personally, I can tell all the readers that the difference between where you were and where you are now is night and day, and it’s great to see. I want to talk about Midlife Lesbian. Tell me about that.

Dusti: Midlife Lesbian is an Instagram account and an online community that I started at the beginning of this, coming out and realizing I’m a lesbian in my 40s phase. I’m not super active in there right now because work is crazy busy. I don’t have enough time to dedicate to it as I should, but it’s a chronicle of that experience, and then there’s a community where people can join, talk about their experiences, ask questions, or share resources.

Traci: Community is a lot of what you do for your job at Thumbtack. You touched on before how all of it has affected your career. What are some of the things or some specifics on how the connection between mindset and success, and how that has played out for you?

Dusti: When I started my job at Thumbtack, I was on the phone, I’m a support agent. It was during that time that I was going through my divorce. I joined the support team because I knew there was a lot of room for growth at this company. I knew it was my way to get my foot in the door, and I could move up from there. I saw an opening for a community position and I don’t think the old me would’ve had the confidence or the guts to apply for that job.

One of the reasons I got that job was because I’m not afraid of change. I’m adaptable. I’m not afraid of a challenge, I was open, and I had a bigger life perspective than most of the people who had applied for that job. As I’ve continued on at Thumbtack and gotten into this position as a Brand Marketing Manager, I’ve been given a lot of projects that have been big, scary, and very much outside my comfort zone.

Had I been through these experiences over the last several years, I don’t know if I would have been able or willing to take those on. It was okay for me to sit in discomfort while I figured things out. The old me was a control freak. There is still some of that in there. I needed to have everything figured out first before I would say yes to anything, if that makes sense.

For me, who has been through all of this stuff, I realized it’s okay to not have it all together all the time. It’s okay not to have all the answers and not know everything. You can still take on a challenge and then you can figure it out as you go. I’ve learned, grown, expanded my knowledge, and been given a lot of other opportunities because of that.

[bctt tweet=”It’s okay not to have it all together all the time. You can still take on challenges and figure them out as you go.” via=”no”]

Traci: You made your way up in Thumbtack. That’s pretty amazing. Tell us what your job entails and what you do.

Dusti: My job is so complicated. My title is Brand Marketing Manager, but I don’t have a background in marketing. My colleagues on my team all have Degrees in Marketing and I studied French, but I have a lot of experience that has brought me here. I run our online community for our users. I run our loyalty program. It’s a rewards program for our users. I cultivate relationships with our users. I do different stories and case studies. I recommend our users for different media opportunities. I run a brand ambassador program there. I do a lot of things.

Traci: You do a lot of things and you’ve been very successful at it. What advice would you give to someone who’s on the cusp of something big like that? A lot of our readers are entrepreneurs, but they need that encouragement to go out on their own or apply for something new, as you did. What would you tell them to focus on?

Dusti: Lean into your strengths. We often focus on what my weaknesses are and how I can make those better. For example, I’m not a numbers person. I don’t have an analytical personality. I’m not necessarily a strategic thinker. For most of my life, I would take these different personality quizzes and stuff and it would be like, “Here are your weaknesses. I would try and make those stronger.”

I’ve learned that as a business owner and now as a marketing manager, I need to lean into my strengths because those are the things that come naturally to me. I am naturally a very strong relationship-builder. I have a lot of empathy for people and those are the strengths that made me successful in my cake business and at my job.

I run a community of people. I’ve built very strong relationships with people all across the country that use our product. I couldn’t do that if I weren’t me. I’m here because I’m me, and I have my strengths. Everyone has their strengths. Focus on what you’re naturally good at and bring that to the table. Don’t be afraid to bring your whole self to the table. That’s important as well. Whatever you’re doing, you can be authentically you because that’s what is going to resonate with people.

Traci: That’s amazing advice. What else do you want to touch on? What do you think would be helpful for an audience of women who are wanting to rebuild and recreate a new life during and after divorce?

Dusti: There’s one thing that I’ve been thinking about throughout this conversation. I talk about it a lot when I’m talking about my kids, but also about myself. When I was younger and my kids were little, I used to say often, “All I want for my kids is for them to grow up and be happy. All I want for myself is to be happy,” but that perspective has completely changed over the last few years. All I want for my kids and for myself is to be okay with not being happy and to be able to work toward the things that make me feel happy. That applies across the board.

We’re not always going to be happy. It doesn’t mean we haven’t accomplished our life’s goals. We need to be okay with not being happy. Whether that’s in our marriage, going through a divorce, or at work, it’s okay to be uncomfortable and not feel happy all the time, but we do need to be working towards the things that make us happy.

Traci: That was a great answer. The things that you’ve shared are very meaningful and were very heartfelt, and I want to thank you so much for coming to the show. We want to have you back if you’re open to it. Where can people find you? Where can they find Midlife Lesbian? Can you give us all your details?

Dusti: If you want to follow me on Instagram, it’s @Midlife_Lesbian and the website is MidlifeLesbian.com. The Instagram account has a lot of pictures of our journey, the coming out process, and me realizing I’m a lesbian. If you need support in any way, feel free to message me there. If you want to talk about divorce or anything like that, I am here and my virtual door is open.

Traci: Once again, thank you so much for joining us, Dusti Ondryas. Have a wonderful day.

Thank you.