Michele Bates holds a Master’s Degree from the University of Wisconsin-Madison, she’s currently the Global VP of Comms and Engagement at Instructure, a Marketing Genius, Wife, Mom, Therapist, and Writer to name a few.
Michele has been Refined By Divorce and many other very difficult life experiences, and yet she remains upbeat, engaged and willing to help.
Listen in to hear our conversation, where she opened up about her life, and shared her wisdom and advice for women navigating the challenges of life, divorce, parenting and so much more.
Listen to the Episode
Welcome back to the podcast, my name is Traci and you’re listening to Refined By Divorce. Today I’ll be airing an interview I had with Michele Bates and you do not want to miss it, but before we get there, I want to talk about a couple of things.
So 2023 and I started off on the wrong foot.
The podcast was scheduled to launch at 3am on January 3rd, just as I was headed to the ER and then later admitted to the hospital for 4 days. I’m fine now, but after that, I was in recovery at home for a few more days, and then just as I started to feel better, I got laryngitis, which took me down for basically the rest of January.
My voice is not fully recovered, which I’m sure you heard on the last couple of episodes, I had to sit so close to the microphone because it couldn’t pick up my voice, but I was determined to stay on schedule. Then I finally realized that it was okay to take a week off, which I did this past week to let my voice settle for a bit, and it’s still not there but it’s way better than it was.
I’m about a month behind in just about every area of my life, but my word for the year is PROGRESS, and it’s making me realize that I AM headed in the right direction, I just need to continually remind myself that things DO NOT need to be perfect.
So on that note, I’m going to forgo having a Refined Rebel this week, and instead introduce you to Michele Bates, who is a remarkable and inspiring woman. She holds a Master’s degree from the University of Wisconsin-Madison, and she’s currently the Global VP of Comms and Engagement at Instructure. She’s a Marketing genius, she’s a Wife, she’s a Mom, She’s a Therapist and a Writer and so much more.
Michele has been Refined by Divorce and many other very, very difficult life experiences, yet she remains upbeat, engaged, and she’s so willing to help others. She opened up about it all and shared her wisdom and advice just for us.
So here’s my interview with Michele:
Managing Difficulties
Traci: Michele, thank you so much for joining us today.
Michele: So glad to be here, thanks for having me.
Traci: Well, can you give us a quick rundown of your life up until your divorce?
Michele: Sure, I was 19 when I got married and I was 31 when I got divorced, so a lot happened. I got married the summer before my sophomore year of college, so I finished my undergraduate degree and then went on to get a graduate degree. I was 7 months pregnant with my oldest when I graduated with my Master’s, and so then I did some work from home that way. I had 3 kids during that period of time, had a lot of not very fun times, but wonderful kids, lots of friends, lots of growth, learned a lot. I worked as a trainer at a medical school and then I did a lot of writing, so I wanted to be a children’s writer and I used my time during that period of time to learn, and for you younguns that was before the internet, and you had to go to the library and figure things out on your own. Sort of figured that out, started writing TV concepts and stuff, it wasn’t enough to earn a living off of, but it was a really fun time. I felt fulfilled in the things that I personally did, it was a good time. And I lived in Wisconsin, which is freezing!
Traci: Oh yeah, like in the negatives right?!
Michele: But I love it, and the people are wonderful and there’s no fences, and most people don’t worry. It’s just a lovely, lovely place, but I got very tired of my nostril hairs freezing, it was a smidge bit too cold for me!
Traci: You packed a lot into that 10 year period, or 11 year period.
Michele: I actually just remembered I was married longer than that, it was like 1993 to 2007.
Traci: Ok, so you were, oh you were married 1993-2007. Ok so what was it that led up to your divorce? And you don’t have to give details that you don’t want to share, obviously it’s a sensitive subject and the listeners understand, but if you could just kind of give an overall like from your point of view. What led up to your divorce and did you have a separation period? I just want to know a little bit more about that part of your life.
Michele: I grew up very religious and so divorce was pretty taboo. The early parts of my marriage was, it wasn’t a good marriage, it was a very controlling, very difficult marriage that had a lot of verbal and emotional abuse involved in it. That could be chalked up to a myriad of different things, so it doesn’t really matter that way, but it was just a difficult time. On top of that my two older kids had disabilities and so there was a lot of pressure with those things and I needed a,…so you know, the chaos of the home wasn’t a good environment for anybody and so it was a very difficult time. I think it’s not so much what led up to the divorce but what led up probably to the courage to go. You know? I think that a lot of people talk about how hard divorce is, for me the hardest thing in the entire world was building up the courage to go ahead and take that step into the darkness and just try to find something better and a way forward. So, for me it took a few years to figure that out, figure out how to leave, what would be good and safe for the family and then how we could move that forward. It definitely was good for both parties, he wasn’t comfortable with the idea of a divorce, just for the separation, in the state of Wisconsin that turns into a divorce after a certain period of time.
Traci: Oh wow.
Michele: We were able to go that direction and slowly turn it into that, but I’m, I’m sure he’s happier now and it was a very good decision, but for those of you guys who are on the fence, it’s hard, but the hardness you know, when things are really toxic that way.
Traci: You kind of have to get to a point where you tip that scale where leaving is easier than staying, and I’m not saying it’s easier, but that because that idea of leaving for me was so difficult and I just couldn’t even, it took a long time to get to that point to where I was more afraid of staying in my marriage than I was of finally leaving. For me that was what it was. Did you talk to anybody about it, and how did you get to that point or what resources did you have?
Michele: And I would say too, for people who are worried about what’s easier or harder or whatever, sometimes it’s better to ask yourself what’s healthier? A lot of times we do things thinking it’s better for the kids, but is it really though? What are the kids seeing, what’s happening, how is this impacting their lives, what lessons are they learning watching dysfunction happen? And those kinds of things. Your second question though, it was really pivotal for me, my youngest Mikey had been born at the time my ex-husband was having an affair, and so I was in the hospital and I was alone in the hospital, and I got really sick with him and there’s no one there to, you know. It was just, it was that kind of situation where you realize that things were, they were just really bad, and they were really scary, and I just looked at this baby that was like, so innocent and like, didn’t need to go through this, right? And my other children had been going through it, but at that point you just get, I think everyone has a little bit of a breaking point, where they’re like, there’s a recognition that this isn’t going to change, things aren’t going to get better, you’re being manipulated, or you know maybe the other partner feels like they, they genuinely feel like it will, but Maya Angelou said that “People show you who they are, you should believe them.” and for whatever reason we just believe they can be better.
Traci: Yeah.
Michele: 15 years later, however many years later, so for me it really was that that last pregnancy was, well all my pregnancies were really hard, but it was particularly difficult. A lot of things leading up to it were very, very bad, and I just sat in that hospital room by myself like really absorbing in the situation thinking, this is not going to change and it could get worse and I have a responsibility. So it wasn’t about me, it really was about my kids. I have to have something better. I have to provide safety, and that can be physical, emotional, financial, whatever it is, but they deserve better than this, and I owe them better than this.
Traci: So that’s a tough one, when you’ve been raised religious, at least it was for me, that leaving you do have to go through a very complicated process.
Michele: I think we all grow up a cultural taboos, so whether you’re religious or not, everybody comes from a cultural place, so it doesn’t always have to be religion, but we all grow up in environments where there are taboos, there are dos and don’ts, and they impact the decisions you make in your life. I grew up in an environment where family was everything and that’s a good thing, but divorce, you married young, as a female you know your job really was to provide that home and there were a lot of elements and aspects that I loved, but I have a lot of brothers and sisters and a big family and no one had ever been divorced. And from a religious standpoint, I had gone to my clergy and I had asked for, it was a bad situation and they just kept saying the more important thing is to stay in it, and it was very, very scary and very hard to take a step back and recognize that wasn’t the right thing, to recognize that there were going to be people who felt like I was a bad person, or I was a sinner, or I was a bad mom because I was making that decision to walk away. It was very hard to tell my family, um, 3 other people did it after me, so I’m a trendsetter,
Traci: You paved the way.
Michele: But it was really scary, you felt like you were losing, you just didn’t know all the things you were going to lose. You lost, you lost the community you lived in, you know, there was just a lot of angst. It can be a very scary situation, and for those of us, male and female, it doesn’t matter what gender-wise I don’t think, they’re just people pleasers that want to make everybody around them happy. There’s a lot of thought that goes into how that’s going to impact other people, and I would just recommend to the listeners, that’s not the priority, the priority is your kids and You. You are the only one with the truth, and you know, nobody can see through your windows, so, we tend to ask for way more outside advice than we should. You know?
Traci: Follow your own barometer, right? Or take your own temperature.
Michele: Very much, yeah! Comfort is a bad thing, anyone who tells you to stay in your comfort zone is cray cray.
Traci: Yeah, right?
Michele: Yeah because that just means that you’re in this place that is simple, and you know how to maneuver it, it doesn’t mean it’s good for you, it doesn’t mean it’s good for your life, it’s that you know, I would just stay away from your comfort zone wherever possible.
Traci: Yeah, I’ve actually been thinking about that quite a bit lately. When you’re in that growth period, it can be scary and painful, and all of those things, but the alternative is you’re not growing, so… How was that changing alongside your marriage, for me it was like someone just took a bomb and blew up my whole life. Everything changes, everything that you’ve known, it’s so outside your comfort zone that’s just not even in the same arena, but how did you transition from having that religious mindset to now where do you, where do you get your, I guess values and you know?
Michele: Yeah I totally understand what you mean. On the first side of it, it does feel like a bomb, it does. Cause I think that for me, it was like I was being told that was what, you know, that higher power wanted for me, and I just couldn’t imagine a higher power that would want me to stay in a situation that was frightening. So, it really had me reassess what that meant. And then, and that, you did lose, I lost my social circle, I lost my safety net, I lost all of those, and it was very scary, but the real positive benefit was realizing that religion is a construct and that doesn’t mean it’s good, bad or otherwise, lots of people love those constructs and they work for them, but it’s a construct to help you identify your values. And I spent a lot of time trying to come to terms with what do I honestly believe, what matters to me, what is morality ,what’s a moral decision versus something that isn’t moral decision, and instead of allowing an institution to construct that I took a deep dive into my own personal, you know my soul and said this is what I believe is moral, this is what I think matters and it impacted the way I’ve parented my children, the way that I’ve lived my life, the relationships that I had, what friendship meant, and I feel so much closer to what I know is right. I feel so much closer to what I find relevance in, what I find value in, and when I teach my children it’s not because you know a higher, you know some book says that, or like you know a lesson in something says, it’s because I’m able to really say to them, I want you to be this kind of a person because it has an impact on others in this way, because you’re going to make an impact on your community, your life, yourself and I’m able to give them real answers instead of just because Mom said. And it’s a really beautiful thing and I’m able to have deeper conversations with friends and in my second marriage I was able to find someone who shared that system with me, not the music I like, not dressing, you know in high school, like they gotta look good, you know? It was really like who shares what matters with me? It changed the playing field.
Traci: So on that note, let’s talk about your second marriage, so how long were you divorced and how did you meet? Just a little bit of background on your new love, well new, old love right? It’s been a minute right?
Michele: I was divorced for 3 years, I started dating after 2. I would highly recommend just getting to know yourself, you know take the time, being alone is awesome! You get the TV controller all to yourself, you get to plan all the meals, nobody touches your monies, it’s great. I actually really liked it, there was a long period of time where I thought I would just be single. I was very happy being single, I was not bothered by that. I know it’s hard for some people, for me it was, it just felt like sweet freedom, I loved it.
Traci: Well, especially after a difficult marriage I’m sure, but..
Michele: It was really nice and I had a very close friend at the time who did not find it that fun.
So she needed a wing man! I agreed reluctantly, I really felt very strongly that nobody in their right mind would even want to marry me, or be a part, because I had two children with very severe disabilities, three children all together. And it’s like one thing to have children and know that those are your responsibilities, it’s another thing to raise your hand and be like, “sure I’ll take it”, it was very hard. I was like yeah I’ll just go date with you so you have someone to go with, no one’s going to want but yeah, I went out with her and I only dated for like a couple months and I met my husband and he was, he’s kind of a, he’s shy, he’s sweet, he’s really into, I am very attracted to intelligence and usually that comes with an ego, which is not great. And so my only rule was I wanted somebody who was intelligent and didn’t have an ego, so again, that wasn’t going to happen! So, it was very sad for my friend, she did eventually find her perfect match, it was a couple of years later, it really wasn’t fair. But, we went on a date and I’m really very fascinated by human culture and human behavior and different things like that, my undergrad is in anthropology and history, and my grad work is in research and psychology and stuff, and he, he’s a world traveler and a world history teacher and stuff, and it was just, we just had this moment where it was just like the most enjoyable conversation. We clicked on all levels. He’s a little bit younger than me, a couple years, and hadn’t been married, didn’t have children, and didn’t have an ex-husband that was rather difficult, and I was like what on earth? I still don’t kind of get it.
Traci: Well you don’t see your value the way other people see it, I don’t mean value in the sense of, you know, a moral value, I’m saying you have so much to offer, I am not surprised.
Michele: He’s a sweetie pie. And I had 100% placement of my children, so they saw their biological father like once a year, sometimes a little bit less, sometimes a little bit more, but it averaged out to about once a year, so he raised them. So Mikey was only 3 at the time, and you know they were with me full time, so he really was their dad. My oldest son had bipolar and autism disorder, and there were times he had auditory and visual hallucinations, and that man was so good with it, such a good guy. So we’ve been together 13 years in March, well we’ve been married for 13 years in March, we’ve been together 14 ½. He’s a very good guy, and I would just recommend that, that’s the other piece about it, is that my children got to witness a healthy relationship. They got to see a healthy relationship.
Traci: They still do.
Michele: Yeah, it made a world of difference to them and with them, and it’s worthwhile, like if you’re staying in it for the kids, I’d say that’s probably not the best bet. I did have a therapist, obviously, so I really highly recommend that when you’re going through trauma, and divorces are a trauma.
Traci: Yes they are.
Michele: It’s really important to get a therapist, and she gave me some of the best advice anybody ever gave me, she said, “as you start to date, don’t go the opposite direction of your first husband, look at what you liked in him and what didn’t work and keep the things you liked in him and walk away from the stuff that didn’t work, or else you’ll wind up with the opposite person who isn’t going to work for you either.” So it was really good advice for me. I wanted that intellect, I wanted someone who is really interested and curious in things and all of that, but I didn’t want the ego that went along with it. We’re just really kind of mellow, so he’s a very good fit for those kinds of things, I don’t like aggression and that kind of stuff and so, it was really good advice if that’s helpful for anybody.
Traci: That’s great advice, speaking of, to me it’s very obvious that you would not go back and I guess stay in your first marriage.
Michele: No.
Traci: Do you think about where you would be? Because I wonder sometimes, you know when people are on the fence, if they could look forward and see what their life could be like? And I think you’re a good inspiration and it’s good to see that you can move on, and have an amazing life. I mean obviously, life is what you make it, but when you’re in an abusive marriage that’s a very different story, that’s not, it’s not something you can just tolerate and everything’s okay, it really does taint everything right?
Michele: I think you said the right word though, I mean, sometimes things are super simple, right? You’ll look at someone’s marriage and you’ll be like, that was dysfunctional they definitely should leave. My theory on it is, if you’re tolerating, you’re not living. And so I think people spend a lot of time wondering if it’s going to be better, but if you’re miserable and you’re unhappy and every day you’re tolerating it just to get through, then it can’t get worse. And if your eyes are wide open and you take your time going into the next thing, you’ve learned a lot, you’re wiser, you’re smarter, you can make better decisions. What ends up happening is people feel, and I’ve had a lot of friends go through this, that first of all, you have to be super comfortable being alone and understand being alone is fine, you have friends, you have all kinds of other things, there’s lots of relationships that edify your life. A romantic relationship that’s barely tolerable isn’t edifying anything, and a lot of people do it because of perception, or you know wanting to feel needed, or loved, or like valued that way you are you are by your friends, you are by yourself, it’s okay to be alone and it’s obviously going to get better, because you’re not going to have the stress and pain of having to tolerate. And marriage is hard! In a good marriage it’s hard, you’re sharing worries, you’re sharing everything else, so at the very least, not living with someone you can barely tolerate and having to do all the hard stuff, I don’t know, yeah, but I I think,… I have a friend who gets very frustrated because she’s like, I just wish he’d cheat on me, or do something horrible so everybody would know why I left. If you have nothing to talk about every day, all the time, that’s kind of awful. So women need to do better to recognize, everybody deserves to be happy and satisfied and joyful, not every minute of every day, but there needs to be a path to joy. If not, it’s not working.
Traci: I couldn’t agree more. During your first divorce what did you do well and what didn’t go so well? What would you tell someone who is going through it right now?
Michele: Oh no, that’s a really good question. I’ve actually talked about this with some friends before. So, I was really intentional and it was a very good decision, so sometimes what happens is you’re either scared or you’re angry, you know a lot of stuff happened, so usually people let their emotions take over for them and kind of, you know, own the day. I didn’t. I had kids involved, things you know, there were things I had to take into consideration, they were pretty heavy and so I was very careful and very intentional how I did things. I thought it through, I thought about what I would do, where I would go. I looked to make sure I could get a job in that area and kind of spend some time there, and then really tried to, the only thing that mattered to me was being able to raise the kids, so having a discussion with my ex about, I’m willing to do a joint separation and divorce instead of just filing myself for what I wanted to file under, if, you know, I can have the children, and I can have full custody of the kids in terms, not legal custody, but just placement, yeah, and then you can have everything else. So I negotiated, I was very clear on what I wanted, I was very clear on what I was willing to give up. I was very careful how I engaged and interacted until I was in a place of safety. I came down with a job, knew I could take care of my family and then I also moved to a place where I had acquaintances and I had other people who could support me. So not everybody has that opportunity of being as careful, but if you do, I would really recommend it, because I don’t have a lot of regrets about how that process and how that happened. And the other thing is taking the time not to need someone else, getting to know yourself, learning to be alone, being comfortable being alone, learning to be very self-sufficient so that you don’t have to fear those different things. And when you’ve been in a really long-term relationship, especially one that has a lot of religious undertones to it, that idea of self-sufficiency, completely on your own, is very empowering. And learning to do that, learning to understand that, is very, very empowering. I think the thing that I was, the thing that was a little hard for me, was I think I probably would have been more open with some of my good friends, or the people around me, in terms of what had happened. And there’s a lot of shame that goes along with divorce, and then there’s a lot of concern that you’re going to, you know, they’re the father of your children, you want to be careful about all of that kind of stuff, but I kept everything very close. And so I think I would have opened up more, and I would have brought more people in so that I could heal faster, and so that I, those things you don’t want to say out loud because you feel shame. When you bring them into the light and you talk about it in your life, it cuts down on that shame, and it allows you to see things in a more realistic viewpoint, which allows you to heal faster and move forward faster. I think that’s the mistake I made, was not being vulnerable enough with people I trusted and cared about.
Traci: That is excellent advice. I think that’s a very common thing and it’s the shame, right, that prevents you from talking about it.
Michele: Yeah
Traci: How have you, how do you view guilt and shame? And how has it changed, you said it changed the way you parented?
Michele: Oh yeah! Shame is a no-go people, there is no situation where shame is a good thing, it has no good powerful impact whatsoever. Guilt is only good when it’s associated with something that’s fair and valuable, where you can put a solution to it and move it forward. I believe in trying to stay away from both of them as much as possible. Growing up really religious, there’s, guilt is a constant state of mind. Sometimes we have to take a step back and go, why am I feeling guilty? Did I do something wrong? Do I need to address my behavior? Did I make a mistake? That, you know, and so you want to process through that. You’re going to be dealing with overcoming a lot of ideas that have been given to you. You know when you’re going through a divorce, you know people say very mean things to you. Your confidence is at an all time low, that kind of thing. Most of the guilt I had was guilt around staying too long, not acting sooner, not taking my older kids out of the situation earlier, but then every time you know when you go down those paths it’s not good, because I had Mikey. And so I’m just not a big fan of looking back, unless there’s a hot tub time machine, I don’t want it. I tend to try to just figure out what it is that I need to change to be who I want to be now and just ask myself, do I have control of that? Can I make a change? If not, probably, probably let that bad boy go.
Traci: Yep, oh I like that. What about your kids as far as, like I said, as far as parenting, so no shame, no guilt, is it more just teaching consequences and..?
Michele: and decision making.
Traci: Oh I like that.
Michele: Being really clear why I don’t want them to do something, what those consequences are, allowing them to have trust until they’ve done something where that has to be rescinded. And I will say from a divorce perspective, one of the better decisions I’ve made, one of the mistakes I see a lot of people making, a lot of friends come to me and they’re like aaaahhh, you’re going to be dating, don’t introduce people to your kids until you know that relationship is going to turn into something viable. People allow people in and out of their homes, and that’s really inconsistent for kids, so the only person they ever met was my husband, and they didn’t meet him until it was definitely going, you know, we were talking marriage. So also when you’re dating, making sure you’re aligned on those parenting practices. We’re all kind of different. There’s lots of things in parenting that aren’t good, bad or otherwise, they just are. So for example, I do not like things sleeping with me. I don’t want dogs in my bed, I don’t want kids in my bed, I barely, and I don’t want his legs coming too close to my side of the bed, I just want to be alone on my side of the bed! So you know, just making sure you’re aligned on some of those kinds of things that aren’t good, bad or otherwise, they just are how you view the world, or how you view things, and make sure you’re kind of okay with that. The kids absolutely loved him. He is much nicer than me.
Traci: Well, you’re the parent, so it’s not a fair comparison.
Michele: I was a lot more strict. He’s a funny guy, he plays video games and stuff like that, but it was very hard for him, so I don’t know if you’re going into a second marriage. I think one of the things that he has always struggled with is, he did raise the kids, but he has no rights, he’s not their biological father. If something were to happen to me, I can’t even give my rights over to him. That was always a tragedy we were worried about, so. He worries that he’s like, not you know, so being aware of their concerns and worries talking about it like understanding that if you’re having someone join your family and join your life, that they have a say in it too. It’s not my decision, it’s our family, and we never did, but I’ve had friends who took courses on that to sort of help that and help that move that forward. And then I made rules when, when I left on my divorce, we made family rules about things we didn’t want to see happen. Again, because the kids were dealing with trauma and they kind of had to kind of get over those traumatic things, so one of those rules was no yelling. I don’t yell, and I don’t think, I mean one of my best friends yells all the time, but for me it was like, it really was a lot about me making sure the home was calm, they could recover, this was a safe space, and for me, I needed that just as much as they did. And so, some of those rules, so talking with my current husband about here’s the deal, baggage exists here, you know here’s what we’re doing kind of a thing. So it was those sorts of things, but I know I know lots of other people that have had much harder adjustments to joining families, but for us it was like we got this Christmas present of a person, we didn’t join families. So I don’t know how that, but you know my sister did, there’s like 7 of them all together, and so she has lots of different stories on that and everything, that’s a different ball of wax, but for us it was about creating a very calm, very safe family environment and making sure that we were aligned on everything. The kids couldn’t go from one to another, they couldn’t, you know those kinds of things. So it’s worked out pretty good, they’re they’re mostly grown at this point.
Traci: Yay! Do you want to talk about your kids?
Michele: Oh my kids are great, my oldest son Zach passed away. Zach had really serious mental issues.
Traci: Yeah, I’m so sorry.
Michele: It’s okay. See that’s the other thing, it was very hard for him so, but he had really bad bipolar and autism, and he struggled with suicide, so he had multiple attempts when he was younger. So my other kids also had to deal with that, so we lived in a household that didn’t have knives, that didn’t have rope. We had to be super careful, we got a lot more time with him than we thought we would, so he died when he was 22, he would have been 24.
Traci: This is so fresh, I’m so sorry.
Michele: That’s okay, I think people need to talk about it more, we need to recognize it more. Zack is unique because he struggled so much, he was very severely ill and worked with doctors his whole life, so it wasn’t like a surprise. We really tried so hard and we kept him for so much longer than we thought we would have him, but you know my kids went through a lot. And so I really believe in therapy and dialogue and really sort of talking through things. Becca is 21 and she has a chromosomal disorder. She is like the funniest, she’s kind of about 11 I would guess, 11 or 12. She graduated high school and she did all kinds of stuff they never thought she would do. And she has some medical issues right now, but we’re getting treatment for those kinds of things, and she has a lot of like, kind of medical things you have to work around, and she’ll probably live with us for most of her life, but she’s made it, she’s done so much more than we ever thought that she would do, kind of crazy. And she’s delightful. Her and Mikey are really super close and she’s a really, really sweet kid, she takes like one college course a year.
Traci: I love it.
Michele: That’s her thing, but we’re kind of hopeful that once we get treatment for some of this stuff she’ll be able to go further and kind of get that figured out, but she’s a wonderful, sweet amazing human being. And then Mikey is 17, he’s a junior. We live in Las Vegas and he goes to high school for the performing arts here which is a really neat thing. The public school in Vegas has some things that are really cool, it’s kind of like a Fame high school, it’s kind of well known. He’s a guitar player, he’s a little bit of a musical prodigy. He taught himself almost everything, he built his own recording studio in his bedroom, in his closet with all the money he earned selling donuts. I’m really proud of him, but that kid is kind of awesome. And I will say, he’s a really great example of someone who’s been through a tremendous amount in his life. He’s 8 years younger than his older brother, they were super close, he felt a huge burden to take care of him and make him better. And you know, he’s really old for his years in a lot of ways, but open dialogue, therapy, like talking through things, he’s very mature for his age. And you kind of see that balance of not shielding your kids, there was zero chance you could shield from Zach,
Traci: Well yeah right, it’s in your home.
Michele: It’s there so, I think sometimes people try to hide things from their kids that they could learn from, or they could use from. But the kids are really good, they’re really healthy. Mikey’s an excellent kid, an excellent student, but more than that he’s just a really good person, and I’m proud of him. And I’m glad that there’s a little bit of freedom for him from all the chaos. I mean his childhood was pretty chaotic with everything.
Traci: Yeah. You’ve had a lot of difficult circumstances in life and I want to tell you that I’m just, I’m just amazed and I think that you’re probably the perfect mom for those children.
Michele: They are the greatest kids ever, I’m lucky.
Traci: Right? Our kids are just everything.
Michele: They kind of just come down as they are, and you’re trying to teach them like, you know, you’re like, oh ok, so this is interesting. I think, I think lots of people have gone through a lot. I think when we look at other people’s lives, it’s hard to imagine because we haven’t been through those things, and so we’re looking through a lens of I haven’t been through that thing. But I don’t know anybody that hasn’t been through a lot. I have friends that are caregiving for husbands that are young. I have one of my best friends, her sister-in-law just died, of a massive like, 45 on the living room floor, like all of us just, but like yeah. One of my favorite quotes in the entire world, and I’m going to massacre, it’s not right at all, I’m just going to put that out there. I don’t get quotes right, I get like, concepts.
Traci: Yeah, concepts. That’s right, that’s what matters.
Michele: But it’s from Joseph Campbell, who was the guy who created the Hero’s Journey, the folklore, but he said that you have to let go of the life you wanted in order to live the life that’s waiting for you.
Traci: I love that.
Michele: I think for all of us that are in these kinds of situations, one of the things we’re really dealing with is grief of the life we thought we’d have. And I don’t think that ever goes away, a lot of us just get these ideas in our head of like okay, this year is going to be amazing, and I’m gonna do all these these things, and then we get sad that it doesn’t turn out exactly the way that we want, and we don’t appreciate the way it does turn out, or what we do have, or what we can get from it. So I have that quote on my wall at all times. I’ve had it on my wall since the day I got my divorce.
Traci: Yeah.
Michele: That was a really big piece of it, as a religious kid growing up you were only as good as the family you created, and the perfection of that family. That is not who we are, that is not the measure of our value and our worth. If we hold on to that, we’ll be miserable. If we realize what we have and move forward, we’ll be fine.
Traci: What makes you feel strong?
Michele: Being able to accomplish something that really didn’t seem accomplishable. And I will clarify that, so I have a sister that I want to introduce you to, so Amy’s really amazing. She goes after, she ran her first Iron Man at like 47.
Traci: Oh my goodness.
Michele: I’m 49 and I don’t even walk. I hate exercise. I do what I have to do, and that’s what you know, for her, that’s the goal that she’s accomplishing, and that gives her strength. For me, it’s like, I have kids with disabilities. I have things that are difficult. I am in an executive position and I actually really don’t, … I like being able to provide for my family. I wanted to be a children’s writer, so everything else is kind of like uuuuuh, and like you know getting up and doing what you have to, to support the things that matter to you, even when it’s difficult, that’s strength to me. Because you know, walking away from those things in your life that are hard, that’s strength. You might not feel it at the time, but it makes it easier the next time you have to do something hard, and easier than the next time you have to do something hard, and you know, when you’re in a situation at work where you’re being bullied, or things are difficult, or it’s really scary. I think a lot of us have situations at work where it’s a toxic environment, things are really hard, being able to stand up for those things even if it might ,you know, cost you your position because of people around you need you, and you need to stand up for what’s right, those are the kinds of things I’m always like amazed by. So I’m amazed by my sister going after those goals, but those are things she wants, and that’s easier I think, we’re going after something we want. When we have to address something that we never expected to happen, and it’s super hard, and we do it for the right reasons, to me that’s strength, because it’s hard.
Traci: Well you’re the definition of strength.
Michele: Thanks.
Traci: What things light you up?
Michele: Comedy
Traci: Comedy? I love it.
Michele: I’m a really big fan. I think that sometimes we tend to, when we’re going through really difficult periods of time, that we have to be like, you know, sad. I think you should make fun of all the dumb s***. It’s good, it feels good, you’re addressing it, and you’re taking it seriously, but you’re also recognizing it doesn’t have power over you, and I love it. I love being around friends, and being around people that can put things on the table that are hard, and find the humor in them, and find the light in them, and joke about them, and really find that,…I absolutely love that it lights up my world, I think it’s intelligent, and I think it’s powerful not to ruminate, or like marinate in it, you know?
Traci: Continually sit in it when you’ve, yeah.
Michele: And then friends. I think we put a lot of emphasis in this life on romance, romantic relationships, and I’m very happily married and I love my husband, it provides one kind of support for me. Friends are a whole different ball of wax. They provide this kind of support, I have some friends that just, are the most amazing people in the world, and I can call on them, and count on them, and even just for fun, and we have those inside jokes, and I know you do too that just, that’s everything, it’s like, you get me, aaahhh. They give you the strength to keep going and it’s always, it’s also really nice to have those friends who know you, so you’re not repeating yourself. You’re able to just say, hey this happened and they recognize that’s really hard for you. They recognize that’s difficult , so for me, especially in some religions, and the religion I grew up in, there’s way more emphasis put on just that family dynamic. I just would recommend everybody having friends outside of that, having friends outside of work, having your people. And you don’t need a lot, actually that’s too hard.
Traci: Yep!
Michele: Have like 3 or 4 people, and those are your people, and Jessica, Sara, Scott, Jessica… and those are your people, there’s so many, like I could just go on, but those are the people you can turn to tell you that’s what you need. And I think that sometimes we’re scared to go to our friends or to people because we want to look like everything’s okay, but you got to have people where you can just say, this thing happened is pretty tragic and I don’t know what to do. They can make you laugh, they can give you advice, they can just cry with you. Have people.
Traci: Love it, love it, I totally agree with you. Having been raised in a religion that does place that emphasis on family, and I think for women, it’s they, you get so wrapped up in your children, that becomes your life, but they grow up and leave, and if you don’t have anything at that point, I just see a lot of depression and a lot of difficulty. So I love that answer. Friends, you know, you got to have someone you can fall apart around and you don’t have to, like you say, you don’t have to say a word, they just know.
Michele: Some of the funniest, heartiest belly laughs I’ve ever had were friends just sending me a picture of their kid, and I know exactly what was happening in that moment and you’re like ahhh, it’s good stuff.
Traci: Now you mentioned, the other thing that you talked about, was being a children’s author, so when are you going to make that happen? Just curious.
Michele: I used to create concepts for children’s television and it’s just like my favorite thing. One of the most enjoyable times I’ve had, and I really, I love to write. I’ve always just wanted to be a writer, so you can’t see, but just above me, and you know what all this stuff is just behind me. I’ve had a hard time writing since Zach passed away, so it’s one of the things that I really do need to do, and need to write my, you know, get back to doing that. I really super, super love it. I think everybody out there can relate. It’s like, it’s been a weird few years.
Traci: Yeah, it’s still very fresh for you. This is, what, 2 years?
Michele: Yeah, and I would say like the last 4 have just been remarkably odd. I’m used to weird stuff happening, but just with everything, with covid and all this stuff, with, there’s just been a lot, and so I’ve just been really hyper focused on that, but I want to. My best friend writes as well and she’s been writing small essays and we made this decision together to just start writing things in essay form, that there’s no purpose to them, like we’re not looking to get them published, you know there’s no end. The idea is just to write and get things down and that’s how you kind of get back into the swing of things, and find that creativity again and so hopefully really soon here. Work is a little, little crazy. Yeah so we’ll get there.
Traci: So you’re, well, I didn’t mean to put pressure on you, I was just curious because it sounded like something you want to do, right?
Michele: Well yeah, I think about it all the time, and the great thing about being a writer is that it’s not like being like a gymnast, or something you know, you don’t like, body age out of.
Traci: That’s right. You’re right, writing you can do till, forever. And it doesn’t require any special circumstances like some of these other things do so…
Michele: You don’t even have to eat a special diet, that’s horrific.
Traci: Yeah, no kidding, so for work, you had worked all along right, like, it’s not like after your divorce you had to go find a new job. Were you working at the time?
Michele: That’s a really interesting thing, I was lucky because I had my education, but again religiously that was, I did some you know, I did some things, but was at home. And so I think that’s a good topic, I would love to talk about that. I did have to find my way back into the workforce after not being active or involved in a regular way. And that is a very heavy thing that a lot of us have to deal with as women, I don’t think men as much.
Traci: Yeah exactly, well and that’s what this podcast is geared towards. It’s kind of a combination of helping women who are going through divorce to be able to not only get through all the difficulty of it, but to be able to support themselves and their family if they have to. Thank you so much Michele.
Michele: Thank you too, you have a super good day.
Traci: You too.
I’m so grateful to Michele for coming on and talking to us and sharing her wisdom and advice. I hope to have her back, we just barely scratched the surface and as I was listening back, I just kept thinking of all of these things that I wanted to follow up and ask her about. I’m grateful that she was willing to be so open and so willing to help us!
Have a wonderful week, we’ll talk soon.
Love In, Peace Out.
Bye.
