Traci: Hi, Lisa. How are you? Thanks for joining us today.

Lesa: I’m doing just fine. Thank you so much for having me.

Traci: Absolutely. I’m thrilled you’re here. Now, you are a divorce mediator. Is that correct?

Lesa: That is correct.

Traci: So tell me a little bit about what you do and how you got into it.

Lesa: Sure. So I call myself an attorney turned mediator. So I practiced law for a long time. And, you know, it’s interesting. I learned about mediation kind of working together. It’s very it’s very different than practicing. And I learned about it way back in law school and was always really drawn to it. And every one said, you can’t you can’t just do that. You have to practice law. So I kind of practiced law and I had babies and I, I did like an elder law. I did elder law work, and I didn’t really have an office, but I’d go meet with people, you know, at their residence, which they like to wait. This is way before COVID. I was ahead of my time. But then finally, probably in about 2016, I made the decision that it wasn’t really, even though I love the people that I worked with, it wasn’t my true calling. It wasn’t where my heart was. My heart was in mediation and helping people work together no matter what it was. And so I just kind of got the confidence and was like, I’m going to do this. Even though everyone was telling me, you can’t, you shouldn’t have practiced law. And here I am just doing mediations, helping people work together to change the divorce story, to co-parent, well, doing some coaching for people, going through divorces and the hard times. And I feel so blessed because it is a greater fit for me. And here’s a really interesting thing. I have been married for 32 years, so I am an odd duck because most of the people in my fields have gone through divorce. But I will say I think it has helped my marriage by watching all the intricacies and learning communication skills that I use. I mean, we’re not perfect. My hubby and I and I use what I learned in that relationship. So it’s been life changing. And my hope is that anyone who goes through a divorce mediation with me is going to learn those communication skills so that as they move beyond, we’re not making the same choices in the future and that we have a better life after going through something difficult.

Traci: And I love that. I love that. Okay. I want to back up just a sec. You said Elder. I was just curious. So before you got into divorce, what was it that you did?

Lesa: Elder Law. And it’s interesting. I think it was because I had worked with the elderly, I had worked in home care, and I think there was a little bit of a thing where it felt like a good thing to do. I mean, who doesn’t want to help the elderly, right? So I was trying to do what I thought would help the world and help people in need. And I did love them. But what I found is that you’ve kind of got to be true to yourself and your calling. And it’s interesting, I wasn’t really focused on I did some adoptions, but I wasn’t truly focused on I was going to be a divorce mediator because I have done some elder law mediations and I can mediate anything but this is where the need was. And then I have such a heart for children being a mom and a grandma that it just makes sense that the co-parent Jean is such a huge part of my practice. It’s an online course that I have to help, you know, and I have to say, if this airs before November 9th, I have a free masterclass on co-parenting and I invite anyone to join. So on my website lesakoski.com, it’s at 10 a.m., but I really want to help parents do this a better way, even when they’re working with a nasty person.

Traci: That’s amazing, that sounds like a fantastic resource, so we’ll definitely put all of that information for your master class in the show notes. Is there anything that you would tell a woman who has a difficult partner as far as mediation goes?

Lesa: It can be tricky because if there is abuse, you can’t do a mediation. You know what I mean? You might be able to do collaborative law where you have two collaborative law attorneys representing the client. So you have to be a little bit careful about it. And generally I do a free consultation and I generally know, you know, you can get a read on if it’s if someone’s going to be respectful, if the other person has a voice, but not always. You know, you need to be aware that there’s all kinds of different kinds of abuse. And this is domestic, you know, this is awareness month for for domestic abuse. So I’m trying to stay more in tune to that. So, difficult is different than abusive. My hubby can be difficult, and so, you know, if you’re going through a divorce and you’re trying to parent with this other person, you know, that’s something one, that’s a whole different story.  So I don’t know if you want to talk first about someone who’s just going through the divorce and how to deal with those triggers that you get?

Traci: That’s great.

Lesa: So what I find, what I’ve learned in my life, living and helping people, is I’ve learned that I’m kind of I’m in control right of my mind, even though sometimes I don’t like to believe that if my husband pushes my button. I’ll have a quick response. So what about if you just stop and notice that you’re feeling triggered and just sit with that, feel it, become aware of it, and maybe just allow yourself to not react to it? I find that is really interesting and sometimes that confrontational person changes. You know, sometimes they they, you know, notice like you’re not reacting and it’ll change the whole outcome. My job is that as a mediator, when you’re in front of me is to help people. And what’s really interesting is people all communicate differently and when I first started this, I thought I had to tell everyone how to act to each other, you know, like a little teacher. And then I had a couple that really taught me something. They had been working with attorneys and they were sick of it because they just wanted to agree. So they came into my office. They were a little late because the husband had picked up the wife from jail for punching him. Yeah, she’d punched him the night before and I said they came into my office and I said, And this is one of my first ones. I don’t think this is going to work. You know, I said, You have to. Lo and behold, it did work because we sat down. They were so dedicated to working together. Yeah, there were there were high emotions. They spoke to each other different than what I’m used to. You know, they were there, you know, things. We’re going back and forth where normally I would be like, stop, you can’t talk that way. But they were comfortable with that way of talking, right? And we were able to come up with an agreement. So sometimes. So I need to be cognizant of that. And at the same time, there needs to be a level of respect and there needs to everybody needs to be heard. And I think that’s what’s so beautiful about mediation, is that you can take the time you have the floor, and I’m here to help you state your issue. Even sometimes to figure out what it is, which is interesting too. And I think that’s where if you’re working with someone confrontational, just be prepared. When you go into the mediation that there may be some triggers and maybe I can just be aware of them and not react. And then there’s tools too, like taking a deep breath, even like just rubbing your fingers together and feeling like the ridges on just gets you more in your head. And I’m not going to lie. It’s hard sometimes, right? I mean, it’s hard when you’re triggered. And so also have empathy for yourself. Don’t beat yourself up, if you lose it, it’s okay. You can come back and learn. You’re not the same person you were when you did that. So there’s just all kinds of tricks. When you’re working with another parent who’s difficult. That’s really, really hard, especially when they parent different than you do. And I guess one thing that is reassuring is that if a child has one high functioning parent, that is not putting down the other parent and is, you know, doing a really good job parenting, that’s kind of all they need. Even if they go to the other parent that you think is dysfunctional. And, you know, I mean, depending there’s all kinds of different circumstances, but I think that just kind of eases parents minds, that all you can do is take care of what you’re doing and maybe, just maybe, them being with you 50% of the time when you’re high functioning is a heck of a lot better than being with the two of you together 100% of the time when there’s not high functioning.

Traci: Yes. Yes. For the clients that you work with, do most of them come to you already, they’re, they are resolved they are getting divorced. Is this their first time mediating or are most of them coming like through the court system and then to you?  How are clients finding you?

Lesa: I used to do a lot of high conflict and I got them through the court system, through the commission. But now I have I have the greatest clients, the nicest people who are finding me on my website because they want to do this different. And I love that and I applaud it, because divorce does not have to look like it used to look. And so many, many of them are lovely to work with, kind to each other, they want to work together. And then there’s that next level where they want to work together, but it’s still emotional.  You know, so I would say most of my divorcing clients are coming to me at the very beginning before they’ve even talked to an attorney and they want to know, so I have a consultation and I let them know, here’s all the ways you can do this. You can each hire attorneys and fight it out in court. You can hire collaborative law attorneys. You can work with me and do it together. And even though I am an attorney, I can’t give any legal advice, right? When I’m doing this, I need to be neutral. So, but I can give them legal information and I walk them through the divorce paperwork. So we go through everything. But I have to say in Minnesota, I also have a little Do it Yourself course where people can do the paperwork and they have my guidance. I try to give them everything I would if I sat in front of them. For those people who want to do it together, don’t have a lot of money to spend, that course is there for that.

Traci: That’s great. And all those are available on your website.

Lesa: They are, yes. Under my online courses.

Traci: Do you have any memorable stories or you know, that you can tell me about divorce and what, what it taught you, what it taught them. Anything that that comes up?

Lesa: There’s so many, but it was funny when I was talking about trying to figure out issues and how sometimes people don’t even really know what the issue is. I had a darling couple and they came in and we did the divorce and they had kids and it wasn’t easy. They didn’t, it was very emotional. But we worked together. We got the agreement done and then I think a couple of years later they called me back and they said, We’re having a discrepancy about the kids’ school and we want to come in and talk to you about it. So they came in, they sat down. That was when I, now I do everything over video, but that was in the days when they came and sat down and they were having an argument about which school they would go to. And the father wanted them at one because he thought it was a better school, and I can’t even remember the reasons. And the mother was saying, No, I don’t want that. And so I kept talking and we kept, and I kept listening to her, and what we found out was she finally said, I can’t get the kids there. I have this job and I can’t drive the kids. Husband had this look on his face like he understood, ex-husband, and he had this, and he said, oh that’s okay. My mom and dad said that they would come and they could take the kids to and from school. WALA! That’s where you know how sometimes you just don’t even know what it really is? And so that took care of it. She didn’t mind them going to that school, she just didn’t know how she could do it. And there the solution arose. They always come up with the best solutions themselves. They come to me and they want me to tell them what to do. And I can give them creative ideas, but the best thing comes from them so that they can kind of design their own divorce.

Traci: Yeah, well, that seems to be the great part of mediation, is that they can be in the same room talking about it. And we all know, like when we talk through things, it does help us get what’s out of our brain onto, you know, paper or whatever, just out there. I would guess as a mediator, I mean, with divorce especially, it’s high emotion because there’s money involved, there’s the children, and I want to talk about that. You have such a calming presence, and that’s what I love about what you do. And I appreciate it. As someone who has been through mediation, sure wish I had had you around back then.

Lesa: Oh, thank you.

Traci: But, my mediator wasn’t quite as loving, and she was great, but just not, just a different situation. So I appreciate…

Lesa: Everyone has different styles.

 Traci: Your style seems to be so caring, and you’ve done this for so long that you get, I don’t mean long, you’ve done this…

Lesa: I have, I’m a Grandma, it’s okay just say it!

Traci: You don’t look it Lesa, you do not look it! Can you give the listeners, maybe a few tips for co-parenting well?

Lesa: Absolutely. You know, I think we talk about how it’s, if you can do it, if you can co-parent well together, bingo, tickets, that’s number one. If you can be kind to each other, that’s awesome, that’s amazing. That’s the best thing that can happen for your kids. In fact, there’s a really good documentary called Split by Ellen Bruno, and she’s been on my podcast doing Divorce Different if you want to hear it. But it’s good because it gets. it interviews kids who are going through the divorce process. And then I got to see like ten years later how they all fared. And so this isn’t scientific, right? But what I saw was there was one little boy in particular whose parents stayed connected. They did do birthday parties together. They did. And even like they would bring in significant others and they would just all be a family. And so he felt so loved. And he said, My family’s different, but it’s still a family. He by far, did you know the best? And then I want to say, too, so that’s, have that be the gold star that we’re going for. And then when you can’t, then you do your best to stay in your lane. You communicate as little as possible with that other parent and keep it focused on the kids where you set up some boundaries about communication. And that’s where I’ve got to say, having a really good parenting plan like the one on my online course, it’s something that you can use as part of your divorce paperwork, but you can fall back on it and say, Well, wait a minute, we agreed that we would talk about the kids on Sundays. And so you can, you know flip back to that so you’re not getting a lot of bad conversations that are affecting you or that aren’t really pertinent to the kids. So you kind of try to limit that. Here’s a little tip that I always tell people if they feel triggered by, you know, maybe he cheated on ya and you’re still mad at him. When he gives you a call, have a picture of your kids pop up, so you see their smiling face and then you remember because that’s what we got to focus on are those kiddos. And that’s what I keep bringing up in the mediation. In fact, I go, Can I see a picture? You know, And they all everyone loves their kids, you know, that’s why it’s so important. And that just makes everything better. So have that picture pop up of the kids, and if it’s something, you’re going to parent different and you’re going to have to be okay with that. And I always say if you wouldn’t get mad at grandma for doing it, don’t get mad at the other parent. So if you see them, don’t expect breakfast. Let it, you know, what it, pick what you’re going to fight about. There is one thing I heard from someone, is that like, if you’re fighting about like the vacation time, the kids aren’t going to remember who they spent that vacation with. They’re going to remember the argument that happened about that. So if you can keep that at a minimum and of course, do the best that you can to not talk poorly about that other parent and, you know, to your kids. And I also want to say I’m all into like, love yourself, have empathy. If you’ve messed up, if you’ve said something bad, hug yourself and say, well, no wonder I did. I’m a human being and this is hard and start over and go back and just change how you’re doing it now, because I don’t want you to feel ashamed. We all fall short and your kids are going to be okay. You can still show them how to do it. So I would say those are some of my key tips. But I think that that parenting plan, if you can think through everything possible, like bringing in a significant other, how are you going to deal with that? If you can address that before it happens, it’ll help.

Traci: Yes, yes, oh those are fantastic tips. I love the family picture coming up that are the children coming up.
It’s the emotions are so strong and it’s hard. So it’s good that you’re there to remind us as parents, get back on track.

Lesa: And it’s important, but it helps. It just helps the whole mediation go better and remember. Okay, well, even though this guy, I’m not liking him so much right now, I have my kids, these beautiful children, because of him.

Traci: Are you able to tell me a mistake that you maybe even made where you it helped you, you grow?

Lesa: Well here’s the thing darlin’, I’ve learned to think of mistakes as a positive. Because every one of them, I’m going to look at that as a gain, and as a gift, because every one of those makes me grow and learn. And there have been so many. And I think probably I almost could get teary eyed. The biggest mistake or the biggest obstacle was me thinking I had to always be perfect. I can’t do my newsletter yet because it’s not perfect. Now, I was just talking to my 82 year old dad about this. I mean, I think I was a people pleaser to him and he reads every one of my newsletters and he’ll tell me when I have a typo. Let me tell you he does. He lets me know. But I told him if I wait it and said, I can’t do this until it’s perfect, I would never do it. If I would have not started my podcast because I waited because, well, I can’t do it perfect. If my online course, it’s not as beautiful as Amy Porterfield’s. I mean, I learned from her that everything you need, it’s helping people. And so that is, I think that is probably the biggest lesson that I’ve learned and also that I have time. I don’t , here I am like a grandma, probably ready to retire in the next ten years, and I feel like I have all this time in front of me. I don’t feel rushed anymore. I feel like I really want to focus on where my calling is, and I’m so grateful that I have found my calling.

Traci: How did you find your calling?

Lesa: I think I feel like I found it very late in life. That is such a good question, such a deep question. And there was… 

Traci: Yeah, you may not be able to answer, but I’m just curious.

Lesa: No it’s okay, I think it may change and grow and get a little bit more specific. But I went through this funny story, so I have a big spread between my kids where my youngest just graduated from high school. We adopted her and when she was in sixth grade, I pulled her out of the school and was like, I’m going to homeschool her because I didn’t know what to do. And I thought all my reasons and they were good ones. And my daughter, I did it for a semester and my daughter would say, no one should ever be homeschooled by me. But it was such, it was such a time for me, such a struggle, because I was still working a little bit and trying to homeschool her and figure out where to get her in school, if I wanted to. That I did a lot of soul searching. It just, it was kind of, not rock bottom, but in a way, for me it was, I need to figure out what I want to do with my life. And I read a book by John Maxwell. I can’t remember what it was called, but I’ll try to remember and I’ll give it to you. I think it was like the top laws of success or something. And I studied it and I just went through. That’s where I decided to be a mediator, where I was like, wait a minute, I don’t want to fight. I like love bringing people together. I love people. I love working together. I, I read people. It’s my I don’t know why, but it’s something, I like to read, how they’re feeling, what their issues are. I’m so into learning about that. And, you know, as I grow in this role, it’s just interesting how my heart has really gone toward children and and really I want to help. I also want to help divorcing people, like I said, have a better life after this. And there’s healing that needs to take place because you don’t want to end up with the same person that you’re with now. And if you don’t heal, you’re going to, you know? And that’s why the divorce rate is so much higher. It’s like 74% second marriages. I don’t want that to happen to mine. So even though I’m a mediator, I throw in coaching. And if you are in Minnesota and you take that online divorce, that Do it Yourself Divorce, I throw in, here’s how to communicate. I don’t want this to happen to you again, you know set yourself up so that you can have, so that you’re not redoing this. And I want to say, too, obviously, I believe in marriage and I love it. And if people can stay together, I want to help them do that too. And there have been times when I’ll go through a divorce and we’ll like do the asset spreadsheet and we’ll figure it all out.
And then they go, well, now we’ve got this settled, so I don’t even think I really need to get divorced. And so that’s called marital mediation, and I’ve done those too.

Traci: That’s great. I was wondering, I was going to ask that, ‘have you ever had someone who, who at the end was like, never mind, we’re not going to get divorced’? 

Lesa: Well, it’s interesting, I kind of do it at the beginning and my consultation is very different. Where I ask them, have you thought well and hard about this because this is the big deal. Are you sure this is you know, and I, I, you know, risk stepping on toes, making people feel uncomfortable, you know, but in my heart, it’s who I am and I have to ask because I want to make sure. And so at that point, I talk through, I’ve been married this long and it’s not always easy, you know, do you want to try? I’ve got some great therapists. There’s great coaches that can help you. And so there have been just there’s not a lot, but there’s maybe two. And then I come in the house from my barn and I sing to my husband, 🎶 Matchmaker, Matchmaker 🎶 And he’s like, oh my gosh. He’s like, well you’re not making any money off of that. And I’m like, I don’t care, it just makes me feel good if it can happen. And obviously I wouldn’t be doing this if I didn’t know that sometimes it’s what people need to do.